In my opinion, access to internet should always be behind a device controlled by an adult. And it should be this adult's responsibility to set appropriate restrictions for minors.
In theory that sounds right; but as a parent with two young teens I can tell you that in practice this is really really hard -- your teens can get around whatever restrictions you might set, bringing you down to either 1) taking away their phone altogether, 2) turning off the internet altogether (while at home), 3) trying some parental control app (none of which work that well or are inconvenient to use in practice). The only thing I've successfully managed to set up is a blocker on the router that shuts off access to their devices at night (so they go to sleep at a reasonable hour). During the day is just way too complicated.
So we talk about it and try to get them to manage it themselves. They're not unwilling, but the addiction of continuous scrolling is really hard to break. It's not even that the content is terrible, it's more just the mindless zombies -- like sitting all day on the couch watching TV. And they don't even have an IG or TT account (and won't be getting one for a long time) -- this is YouTube (which now has endless scrolling like TT) which I don't want to block altogether because there's other helpful resources on there.
I've always been an early adopter, and was on BBS and IRC and all that back in the day, love the fact that the Internet is a place you can easily set up your own blog and all that, but recently I've honestly come to f*ing hate the internet in general and social media in particular.
This is something I am conflicted about as a parent.
My daughter is still a baby, so the problem is still a few years away. But I don't know how to best handle it.
In some ways, I see social media as more poisonous to the brain than alcohol or tobacco. So, forbidding - or heavily limiting - internet access sounds like a plan.
On the other hand, part of me being a parent is teaching her how to navigate the world. And part of that, wether I like or not, is using the internet. Having contact with the communication tools that exist.
The world is full of sons of bitches. If I don't teach her how to deal with that, I would be raising an idiot.
Still, a problem for the future me to ponder over.
My parents did exactly that, but not in a large quantity. Gave me a sip of a really crappy beer when I was young and basically told me it all tasted like that.
Did a pretty good job of not tempting me to try it very much.
Yea, I think anyone who grew up at the start of the internet in homes realises just how different it is now, and that teaching your kids about how to be safe online etc is an important part of parenting. But we are at the point where we have some parents who always had access to what it is now, and don't see it as a bad place.
"Stranger Danger" is no longer don't get into a van with someone who promises you sweets kinda thing.
Agreed. My kids are young right now, but I'm wondering if we can just have a shared family room computer like in the 90s. (school-based laptops might thwart this, but maybe by the time they're school-aged people will realize that constantly putting kids in front a screen is a bad thing to do?)
Yep, I bought a separate all-in-one computer that is in the living room, in full view of everyone else, so we can keep an eye on what is going on when they are using it.
We also have pi-hole running that blocks a lot of things, and can turn on and off certain domains (so they can play roblox etc for a short while, then its blocked again) and their devices are pretty locked down
All four of my daughters prohibit my 7 grandchildren from going anywhere near roblox. My grandchildren are currently ages 2-11 but my daughters are so outraged by what happens there that they say their children will never be allowed on roblox until they move out of the house. Apparently it is extremely predatory, lots of bullying, and highly sexualized - and while children are the site's target audience, the site provides no effective oversight.
You can be pretty effective with not much - school laptops can be router-blocked to the needful, the main familyroom computer can be visible to all but also have rudimentary DNS blocking, etc.
The key is to be open about it and “more” than reasonable; allow things when requested that aren’t harmful.
If we’re too perfect at protecting them from the world they’ll have no tools to deal with the world, which they will have to do eventually.
Even if they don’t share a computer you can still set up their own computers in a shared space. We don’t put tvs in bedrooms either just to keep those rooms for reading/sleeping. Added bonus of keeping computers in common spaces is that your kids won’t disappear into their rooms one day and never come back out.
You can have a shared family room computer! It works really well. No screens in the bedroom is a great idea. iPhones with strict Screen Time settings are awesome when the kids get old enough to use a phone for communication but not old enough to handle a phone with games and the full Internet
My 16 yr old just had his phone update and apply his old screen time settings from 4 or 5 years ago. Sorry kiddo, don’t remember the screen time password.
Now why they came back, and weren’t working before? The restrictions were so full of holes that they didn’t really work as anything other than a speedbump.
And since you have root certs on the devices, you can decrypt traffic and uniquely identify devices and block internet from your central management, at any time, regardless if the phone is on your wifi vs a friend's vs mobile data.
With my family, I shut down and threw away my last PC; too many security head aches. I bought the cheapest large screen iPad(s) and promptly locked them down. One of my best decisions.
I think that's the idea behind the family room PC -- you have parental observation rather that attempting to rely on (necessarily-imperfect) security software.
I think the parent should decide what the level of control is and what is appropriate for their child. I don't think we need to set up laws for everyone in the world.
For several years now, I have lived my life under the presumption that whatever I say on the telephone, email, or text has been downloaded and preserved somewhere.
Whilst I do kinda agree, I was just replying to the parent about what the punishment would probably be :)
But the problem is that people are NOT managing their own kids' shit, and now we have to have things put in place to try and counter that - and end up overreaching.
I'm more than happy to educate mine on how to be safe online, and to come and talk to us about stuff, other aren't, or are not aware they need to.
Perhaps buying internet means you have to sign a waiver saying that if anything happens because of the internet then that is on the parent(s)...
Consider a parent that uses mac address filtering to block access. Easy to implement on routers.
What happens when the parent goes to bed and the kid hard resets the router? Or the parent goes to bed and the kid spoofs the mac of the parent's device?
It's a good outcome! Let the cat and mouse games begin, and the youth will be more tech literate than ever. But I think punishing the parents is a bit much.
It'll probably eventually be like how modern folks treat play dates when they ask the counterparty if there are guns in their house and whether they're locked, etc. but with the internet: Do you have a central device management system with proper safeguards, logging, and ml running for anomaly detection on your network? Do you dpi? How do you prevent your kids from evil maiding you? Is your personal computer locked in a cage, and do you check all your paraphernalia for keyloggers, etc. before booting?
Such a waiver would be equally insane given the fraud and malfeasance that goes on every day it would be like signing a waiver saying whatever happens in the world is your fault for a drivers licence.
Instead how about we simply continue to make reasonable laws regarding behaviour and holding individual people and companies responsible when they violate the law.
Whilst we are at it we can keep content filtering for pre teens and imposed by parents and accept that teens are going to figure out how to get to the real internet at some point.
I'm really glad you're not in charge of making laws. The one thing you can do as a parent is override most age restrictions. You can give your child alcohol, you can take them to R rated movies, you can let them watch NC-17 movies at home, you can buy them M video games, you can just straight up buy them porn. But then parents have a legal requirement to restrict their child's internet access to whatever the government happens to approve of—utter nonsense.
I mean there's a pretty simple comparison here - it's illegal to not send your children to school. Why do we send children to school? So they are educated and developed into functional young adult members of society. You could make the argument that access for kids to the Internet, which has all of the world's information and connectivity, should be regulated in a similar fashion.
As a parent, I was shocked how little that's actually true, at least in some US states. Home-schooling can mean sending a copy of your curriculum to your school district and you're good to go.
But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose.
When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before you catch him, you lose.
When you have parental controls set up on your wifi network, but it's trivial to shut the wifi off and use the cellular network instead, you lose.
When your friends all have personal cell phones but you don't, you lose.
Parents have their hands full enough. Make it easier for parents, don't poke at them with a pointy stick.
> But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose.
You are at fault.
> When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before you catch him, you lose.
You are at fault.
> When you have parental controls set up on your wifi network, but it's trivial to shut the wifi off and use the cellular network instead, you lose.
This can be controlled via Parental Controls on iOS via Screen Time. If you chose not to, you are at fault.
> When your friends all have personal cell phones but you don't, you lose.
Not sure what you want anyone to do about this. I recognize that life isnt fair.
> Parents have their hands full enough. Make it easier for parents, don't poke at them with a pointy stick.
No one is arguing against this. They are arguing how to implement this.
Glad to hear your life is so simple that you can track all this while working full time jobs, cooking healthy meals, driving the kids to the various activities and travel sports (because you could be arrested if you let your kids walk anywhere), making sure they complete their homework on time, monitoring their interactions with friends, tracking new tech trends to find new threats (is my kid interacting with character.io or ChatGPT in an unhealthy way?)... I'm sure I'm missing a few more.
And yes, you are arguing against "making it easier for parents" - my original post literally advocated for legislating tech companies to make controls available, effective, and easy to use. If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me. Instead you're nitpicking my ability to parent my kids. Exactly the behavior that isn't working, so please continue - I'm sure it'll work now.
> Instead you're nitpicking my ability to parent my kids.
You willingly invited that conversation. I obliged.
> If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me.
Get over yourself. You have not made an attempt to ask for a solution from me to find common ground. You keep trying to remove yourself from the responsibilities of parenting in the modern world as shown in the examples you put forth and your initial post asking that parents not shoulder the blame for what is happening under their nose. Surely they have some level of culpability.
I believe that it would be good for Parental Controls on devices to have a toggle to say that the phone is being used by someone in under 13, or someone 14-18 (whatever bands you want). When enabled, this flag should be available to locally installed apps and remote connections. Laws can be passed that tell remote connections how they must act when receiving this flag. This keeps me, an free adult, from being subjected to more corpo/govt tracking.
Ad hominem attacks - great way to find common ground. I actually did try to find common ground, which is that we need to legislate. My argument is that the real entities that need legislation are the ones who can most afford to do so - in both time, resources, and ownership of the platforms that we are all beholden to. I will not advocate for even more punitive restrictions on parents (who already are subject to enough societal punitive pressures as it is - TBH your post is a great example. Instead of empathy, you reply with scorn and derision - as if I'm not good enough to parent my kids).
> I believe that it would be good for Parental Controls on devices to have a toggle to say that the phone is being used by someone in under 13, or someone 14-18 (whatever bands you want).
So you're admitting that parental controls are ineffective?
> Laws can be passed that tell remote connections how they must act when receiving this flag.
And those laws are enforced through what mechanism? What country enforces this law? Do ISPs now have to only accept connections from "legal" remote servers that have attested that they respect that flag? That sounds like an even more restrictive situation for you, as a free adult, than the current system.
But, I do have good news! What you described already exists! In fact, there are even W3C standards that have been around for 30 years to implement a machine readable content rating system! Just never got around to that whole passing a law thing to force all websites globally to adopt it...
Grow some skin. I used that ad hominem in response to your false dilemma/no true support comment of "If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me". This comment ignores the obvious 3rd option that we can share underlying values (parental controls are helpful) while disagreeing on details, tradeoffs and the responsibility that comes with parenting.
> So you're admitting that parental controls are ineffective?
I never stated anything of the sort. I specifically pointed how they could be effective for you in the examples you brought forth. I think they could be made more effective, not that they are ineffective.
> And those laws are enforced through what mechanism?
If this is how you feel, than no solution you put forth is valid either.
At this point, I've stated how current parental controls can solve some of your issues, parental controls can be strengthen, outlined an implementation that does not disrupt the lives of Adults on the internet while also pointing out that parents are not immune from blame and are bare the majority of control over their childs lives. Ive engaged with you in good faith.
You just keeping shitting on everything. All because I stated that parents are not immune from blame. I stand by the ad hominem.
We should then make laws that parents must tell their kids to clean their room. Next we can make laws that parents must tell their children to eat their veggies. What about chore laws? Teeth brushing laws? Stop arguing with your sister laws! More laws!
I know that was snarky, but that already exists in Germany, since the introduction of the civil law book two centuries ago. Children are legally required to do chores. Actually this is quite important, as otherwise it would be an adult requiring minors to do unpaid work, which is illegal.
There's a giant difference between stopping kids having full reign on what is now essentially the whole world of information - and instant access to strangers, than there is making sure they eat healthy, help out, and don't have bad teeth .... but I'm sure you know that :)
The only difference is in parents who raise and protect their kids without needing a law...and people who want government to be mom and do it for them and are willing to make everyone else suffer for it :)
we trained our kids to avoid bad words we taught them to be ashamed of bad pictures, we put porn mags in a hidden location, we put sextoys in hidden location, we locked the pay channels on the cable box, but this internet thing came along and all of that is on there, we didnt lock the computer, or put it somewhere hidden, or the router, or the modem, we didnt lock the box for the service dropline, or for the starlink terminal, we decided to complain until pushing the entire service for everyone into the lock up, not only the kids.
How does that work in practice? I've tried to do this at home. It doesn't work at all. It's not the 90s any more- there isn't one PC sitting on a desk with a modem attached to a phone line that you need to wait for 30 seconds to dial up and establish a connection before you're online...
Now you have ubiquitous WiFi and cellular connectivity across dozens of devices in a typical household. Even refrigerators have built in web browsers now. Parental controls are a joke, treated as an afterthought at best - nonexistent at worst. Oh, and the school system provides your kids with a Chromebook with Internet access starting in elementary school.
It's victim blaming at its finest IMO. Yeah, we can all point fingers at the parents who sit their kids down with an iPad. But there's many of us who struggle to limit screen time, working against the profit motive of trillions of dollars of corporations. It's a losing battle.
Edit: crazy. Instead of providing an answer to my question of "how do you do this in practice" I get downvoted. Goes to show that there are no real solutions, just a bunch of morality police and victim blaming. Yes, parents are the victims here. The tools are inadequate and trillions of dollars of incentives are lined up against them.
No, I think what they want is not to have the rest of us have to jump through hoops (and sacrifice privacy) to achieve the same thing. Some of us don't have kids (or live in a household with any), so passing a law that potentially limits our internet access to solve a "problem" that already is dubious is ridiculous.
Fair enough! I misunderstood your previous comment as implying that measures like this were needed due to the unlikelihood of parents enforcing this. (There's probably a joke somewhere in here about "parent" comments as well, but I'm not clever enough to figure it out at the moment).
