so what if it is? incels are obviously suffering too; it's not like the fact that they presently hold a toxic and sexist opinion makes them into a moral non-entity. Instead they're just tragic. Doesn't mean you can, or should, help them, nor should you tolerate that attitude when it is threatening to others. But it's tragedy all the same.

Why link closeted gay men with Incels? There was no shade of “deserve” or “victim” in the parent comment. Fact is gay men historically have had a very bad time finding love, Incels is a weird subgroup of hateful men with negative viewpoints, unless I’m out of touch with their zeitgeist.

I just think the comparison comes off as unkind to gay men.

People seem to disagree with this comment but it makes sense. Lots of people get no genuine sexually or emotional attention sure to severe disabilities, cultural incompatibility, weight issues, or simply because they don't know how to socialize properly. It's odd to say they can't live a full life, just because they didn't kiss a girl in the 9th grade.

If relationships are so key to the human experience, the incels would be right. They argue society should feel bad for them and accommodate them, because not being able to get sexual attention keeps them from having a normal life.

Not that I agree with them, but it seems odd to place so much value on relationships, except when people complain it's a problem they can't get one. I have a severely disabled friend who talks about wanting to get married every day. No one has ever shown him that kind of affection and I don't think anyone ever will. That's life for some people unfortunately. If you keep telling them they're missing out on the most important part of life of course it just makes them more frustrated

Just because something is key to the human experience, doesn’t mean some other person personally owes sacrificing their literal bodily autonomy to accommodate another who is missing out. We don’t have to pretend most people can live a happy life as a sexless hermit (we just had a large natural experiment on this during COVID) to avoid demanding anybody has to date someone they don’t want to.

Human relationships are a key part of most lives. Incels might have a point, but that does not imply that they have a solution to their own woes.

Yep. The world's a cruel place. The only choice for some people is to look beyond it for happiness.

That's individuals deciding not to be with other individuals. It's not two people of the same sex who want to be with each other but are arbitrarily prohibited by the rest of society.

Most people do deserve to be able to form emotional and sexual connections, and most people that are unable to in practice are not incels and deserve sympathy without complication. They’re victims, but only in the same sense that someone can be the victim of a hurricane. The important bit is that no person has a duty to be the one to provide those connections.

> They’re victims, but only in the same sense that someone can be the victim of a hurricane.

What about those that can't form connections because of emotional abuse in their past? I wouldn't call them victims of a hurricane like it's some kind of unpreventable natural disaster. They're victims of their abusers and the people in their life that didn't intervene to stop the abuse.

That’s absolutely true - I was mostly trying to stake out a weaker claim against someone who seemed to think anyone who feels bad about the fact they can’t find sex is an unsympathetic incel. And I don’t think even the people who are lonely simply due to vague social trends like fewer tight-knit communities have an unpreventable problem at the societal level. It’s just there’s not an obvious perpetrator (pet theories about the causes of social decay non-withstanding).

Not at all- human connection and love are important and hard for most people to live without. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that. The problem with incels is they feel entitled to that, and use it as a basis to fuel hate towards others for denying them what they feel entitled to- and there is no sense of that sentiment in the comment you replied to.

I hope this comment finally seals my departure from HN. Lots of very thoughtful people here but the small toxic fraction is still too high.

Yes, there are some toxic people here, as in any community or population, but there are also thoughtful and compassionate people here. This article seems to be mostly filled with the latter. I don’t know what your experience on HN has been but I encourage you to look beyond the that unpleasent post and consider the humane majority on this pot before you make your decision.