Is drew pursuing being a pundit more these days? He always had a certain propensity for commentary, but it was usually about projects, but now seems to be more general commentary. This reads more like a disclaimer of someone who just saw the uproar around Pine64 and said "oh crap, I recommended those. better do some intellectual damage control".
I like you drew, and I pay for your products. I make this post with a sincere face, please do the moves that got you to the dance.
I write about the things which are important to me, and this is no different. FOSS belongs to all of us, and we each have a personal responsibility to make sure that the community is a positive force towards the ideals we aspire to. I take this responsibility very seriously.
I have been aware of these developments for a long time, as many PINE64 community members are among my personal friends and collaborators. I had hoped that pressure from others would be enough to bring about change, but seeing PINE64's response to Martijn's post confirmed that it's not. I'm here to do my part in keeping the pressure on PINE64 to do the right thing.
I blog often, and most of my blog posts are not critical in tone. However, critical ones tend to receive more coverage in places like HN. If you'd like to see more diverse writing from me, I encourage you to subscribe to my RSS feed.
> However, critical ones tend to receive more coverage in places like HN
Does that incentivize an author to be more dramatic? At least in your case, you blog without the exclusive intention of reaching front pages. But it's interesting to always note the "outrage" incentive exists.
He recommended it before, and now he wants to give some context to his other posts so people know he changed his opinion.
I don't see anything wrong with that. It seems to be the right thing to do. The alternative is deleting the posts so people don't get mislead by him recommending PINE64 even though he maybe wouldn't anymore at the current point in time.
I don't read his post as him changing his opinion on recommending Pine64, but as a request to Pine64 to fix the situation, in which he expresses his expectations. I'm rather happy he did: he is read, and I share these expectations. I want Pine64 to succeed (actually, the mobile Linux ecosystem but I think they have a major role in it and can keep having a positive influence) and I think they need to do what Drew wrote for this to happen.
I hope they'll reach out to Martjin and that they find a way to come to an understanding.
unfortunately, the last thing ANY project needs in order to succeed is DRAMA!
no matter how we twist and turn, this kind of fighting is not helpful. drew may be right in what he says, but being right doesn't matter. collaboration, support and good will matter. if we want to help a project that is making mistakes, they need to be able to fix those mistakes without being denounced.
as drew says, it’s difficult to acknowledge our mistakes, and exactly because of that, we as a community need to create an environment where acknowledging mistakes is possible without embarrassment. those asked to acknowledge their mistakes need to be sure that they will be forgiven. unfortunately, with both pine64 and manjaro seemingly being pushed into a corner, i don't know if that can happen.
drew is exactly right when he describes the three outcomes, where the only successful outcome will be for pine64 to acknowledge their mistake with grace and humility.
but, this is going to be very difficult if everyone keep putting pressure in them, because for sure there will be some who will not recognize if pine64 responded with grace and humility. instead everyone else needs to deal with this problem with equal grace and humility too.
those with a stake in this situation need to get around a (virtual) table, and work this out amongst themselves, and come up with steps to move forward where everyone of them can get something positive out of it. it may be difficult, but i really wish that this is going to happen. (my son is waiting for that pinetime i ordered, and the pinephone with the external keyboard is still on my shoppinglist as my next portable server and emergency laptop, so really i am rooting for their success)
Mobile FOSS is important. He has a position where a simple blog post by him can reach the HN front pages. It's a good thing that he's putting his opinion out there in a constructive fashion to help prevent mobile FOSS from decaying.
It would be one thing if he went all Twitter and started telling everyone to leave Pine otherwise they would be morally equivalent to Hitler.
That's not what he did. He has pointed out several alternative steps Pine can take and what he believes the outcome would be, while also pointing out a simple constructive step that he believes would help remedy not just this specific situation, but long term, perhaps irreparable, damage to mobile FOSS.
This comes across as an unambiguously good post to me.
I think both Martijn and Drew have their hearts in the right place, but I strongly feel a giant blogroll of criticism posts headlining HN for three days is just going to kill the mobile FOSS ecosystem (or leave it only to Librem, which prices out most folks). And the complaint can't be separated from the fact that... people just don't like that Manjaro is the selected "default". Because a default was and is sorely needed, and of course, now that there is one, people have opinions on it.
There's no denying its entertainment value, but I agree, it does hold us back as a field of study where progress is sorely needed.
It's clear there's a lot of he-said she-said, with some truths mixed in, but what's clear is that the two sides are different paths in the road to the same destination. It's sad that we can't make it to the finish line as a team, but that's life, and that's okay.
> This reads more like a disclaimer of someone who just saw the uproar around Pine64 and said "oh crap, I recommended those. better do some intellectual damage control".
I don't think so. It all reads that "Hey, Pine64, You're ruining it. Get it together or you'll be in a worse shape".
With his prominence around certain circles, he's just making the situation tougher for Pine64, by making things even more visible, and I support that.
Manjaro is and always has been a joke. I won't even consider PINE products given their relationship...it completely tarnished any reputation they may have had.
Fairphone and Librem are alternatives to Pine64 hardware in the same way that a Lamborghini may be an alternative to a Toyota Yaris. They aren't even remotely in the same pricing band.
They are still alternatives… with different pros and cons, the price being one of them.
But the Fairphone is not an alternative to the Librem 5 and the PinePhone, and those are not alternatives to the Fairphone. They target different things.
It's not necessarily open source hardware, but there's the option of getting a used or new old stock phone that works with a distro like postmarketOS, or /e/ phone, etc.
I don't know how much it matters, either. Nor why I should care that much.
Pine64 wants to ship working products. It can't do that if it wants to support 30 different Linux distributions or phone products simultaneously. Most of which don't even have extremely basic features working, like cameras or the ability to make phone calls.
Maybe Manjaro isn't the most ideal choice in the world, but it's a hell of a lot better than not making one.
I’m not trying to start some distro flamewar, but manjaro is considered quite shady compared to basically all the other distros by taking arch maintainer’s work without attribution, as well as the recent HN post about them. Sure, settle on any of the distros, but the odd one.
Manjaro is #4 on Distrowatch as of this comment, while Arch is #27. Not saying that popularity is all that matters in a distro, but widespread adoption is really important in getting non-technical benefits such as funding, clout, and people willing to devote time to the project.
About the shadiness: every project takes or is inspired by other projects, none have come up in a vacuum. Even with the sketchy reputation, Manjaro seems to have the support needed to actually turn into a Linux winner in the long-term.
MX Linux has been #1 on distrowatch for ages. Do you know anyone using it?
Distrowatch doesn't (and can't) measure actual popularity or distro usage, only how many people clicked a link on their page.
Manjaro seems to be a rather poorly run distro.
1. They just blanket delay every package from Arch for two weeks for higher "stability". That includes security patches! [1]
2. Specifically on the Pinephone, they've shipped WIP patches to get the camera working, breaking a lot of stuff in the process and adding an additional burden on the project maintainers who now have to deal with manjaro's users in the issue tracker for something that hasn't been released officially. [2]
They've also managed to let one of their website certificates expire for the FOURTH time.
> MX Linux has been #1 on distrowatch for ages. Do you know anyone using it?
I have always been super confused about MX Linux being number one on distrowatch but have literally never heard of anyone running it in my (probably limited) circle of friends, colleagues, podcasts I listen to, etc.
I was aware that they just measured clicks on websites, but I would be super interested if there is any more info on why MX Linux is always number one on distrowatch? Do they use bots or something to generate traffic? Or do tons of people actually visit their site?
Inspiration is absolutely not the crux of the problem, false attribution is.
Also, I would say that most of the Manjaro installs actually want an Arch install, they just don’t/can’t do the manual installation due to not having enough time/expertise. So these numbers are not really telling in my opinion.
Yes. A lot of contributors from the community put countless hours on making software work on this hardware. And a lot of work still needs to be done.
If the hardware vendor turns its back on the community, that'll drive developers away, demotivate them or burn them out. See also: https://blog.brixit.nl/why-i-left-pine64/
> can’t you just… put your own OS on there or whatever?
You can put your own OS on pretty much any hardware. But you need A LOT of effort, and if you drive contributors away, that goal also moves further away. If the hardware vendor doesn't collaborate, it's even harder.
The Pinephone is only usable because multiple communities of volunteers have created software for it. Pine64 encouraged this effort with the first wave of phone releases as "community editions". Now it appears that they are abandoning this effort in favor of a distribution, Manjaro, which has not been putting in as much effort on writing software as the other distros; Manjaro even seems to be mismanaging their release of software by prioritizing updates over stability.
One could argue that multiple communities of volunteers is not an efficient way to run a hardware and software project, but I think that overlooks some key aspects of how volunteering works.
What kind of power does it actually use? The specs seem to indicate that it can take in up to 72W but is that legitimate? I currently have a no name 40W iron and have been eying the Pinecil for a while but don’t know if this will be good enough to solder thicker gauge wire.
the connector is almost the only thing that matters to make it work -- you can wire up LIPOs with varying numbers of cells and it will happily work, so long as you don't go too far above specs. I've run mine in 3S, 4S, and even a 6S config, though 6S is probably really too far.
Truth be told for me it was entirely a cost thing. Was looking at name brand chargers that can do 60W power delivery & they cost more than the iron itself.
My thoughts after the discussion yesterday are that I'm going to open up the case of a PineBook Pro or PinePhone Pro anyway so it isn't a big deal to have to swap the eMMC module to another machine to write it. I can live with not being able to boot them from SD.
You don't have to. I have the PinePhone Pro, you can flash Tow-Boot to the SPI without having to fiddle with the hardware. After that, you can chose to boot on the MMC, or the SD Card by pressing some buttons without issue.
But the important issue being discussed here is not a technical issue. It is a community / social issue.
This seems way overblown, from pretty much all perspectives.
1) Listening to community. People can suggest all kinds of conflicting things, and you just can't satisfy everyone. My experience is that many of my HW modification suggestions were listened to, even some I'd expect the Pine64 might have found a bit frivolous, like desire to have some GPIO exposed as easily accessible solderable pads on the Pinephone keyboard's PCB, so that I can mod the keyboard later on and add some buttons to the bottom side of it, etc. I got some help with aquiring of information about various chips, that I requested, etc. I didn't get everything I wanted. Life is hard I guess. OTOH, Pine64 probably did not listen to some other HW mod suggestions that I have participated in group thinking about in the chats.
I think those were the mods that would require more risky redesign, like sugestion to split DC-IN and USB-IN on the Original Pinephone PMIC to better support the keyboard, or suggestions to redesign battery charging circuitry in Pinebook Pro, so that drivers can limit input current to be able to follow the Type-C/PD specs more closly.
These are risky to follow from us randos on the internet. Even simple suggestions are risky to follow, even if they are correct! Take the addition of diode to prevent some issues with the pinephone keyboard's charging circuitry. The suggestion was followed, but mistakes were made in the long chain that engineering the change takes, and the diode was placed incorrectly and prevented charging the keyboard completely.
2) Bootloader/SPI thing. Yeah it's unpleasant for distros to have to include U-Boot as part of the distro image, especially when things are in flux and fixing bootloader is required for fixing things in general, too, and you have to track non-mainline patches, because Pro support can't be mainlined, yet.
So now there's Tow-Boot to come to the rescue as bit of a center of gravity for U-Boot development/support. Except that it's not really that maintained either with last patches added like 6 months ago https://github.com/Tow-Boot/Tow-Boot/tree/released/boards/pi... despite persistent issues with Pinephone Pro bootlooping, because bootloader allows boot when there's not enough energy in the battery. Some hack patches are available, but not included. Etc.
Also because things are in flux, allowing users to combine arbitrary U-Boot with arbitrary kernel version can lead to all kind of fun things, like hard to explain overheating of the phone, because kernel enabled cpuidle support, and U-Boot version in SPI lacks it and similar things.
3) Diversity/monoculture angle
Focing Tow-Boot can easily be construed as just another thing that Pine64 is forcing on users by default, too. Pinephone/pinephone pro has bootloader diversity, with alternative bootloaders being much better for users in several aspects (like not having charging or bootloop issues, or having multi-boot functionality or GUI) and maybe worse in others. So on one hand Drew is arguing that there's monoculture in distros, but wants to force monoculture in bootloader, using a barely maintained/developed one.
In the end, the most important thing is that there's not technical lockdown (secure boot not enabled). Pine64 has no say in what user can flash or not. Escaping the default bootloader is as easy as booting the preloaded Manjaro and erasing it from SPI and eMMC. The phone or pinebook will then boot whatever user wants to boot from SD card.
I have no ties to these people, but say after a pandemic and recession, a corner restaurant raises prices, drops your favorite dish and the rest come in smaller portions and don't taste as good. Would you shout that they let community down and demand an apology, or would you just accept that running a small business is hard and many don't make it, or fail to cater to any customer. Non-Android Linux phone is already a niche, your own distro is niche of a niche, like vegan gluten free keto dishes. Maybe they just can't figure out how to pay for such support rather than being malicious jerks? Even tech giants drop features all the time
Sure, the restaurant will change. But suppose the cooks are volunteers. You need them to make anything usable out of the food that was bought from the wholesaler.
What if, like Pine64, the restaurant only supports, communicates and negotiates with a few volunteers who serve the dish but not prepare it. All while not supporting, communicating and negotiating with the cooks in the kitchen. And now the cooks in the kitchen run away, what is there left to serve? Only ready made dishes, but no new dishes. And what will happen to the restaurant?
The Pine64 community makes the software. Manjaro only serves it to the enduser but doesn't help building it. Current devices are somewhat supported, new devices have big question marks hanging above them.
Volunteer kitchens also close all the time. But a lot of times an appropriate response is to start your own volunteer kitchen and try to sustain it better long term rather than yelling at founders of the failing one who may simply not have time or resources. Especially if they gave you a lot of free recipes so that you don't have to figure everything out from scratch.
This happened with one of our favorite restaurants. Our last meal there (post-pandemic) was half as good and twice the price. They lost our business, because they no longer provide sufficient value.
Given these recent events, I see the same thing happening with Pine64. They have lost their way, and my interest in their products has evaporated.
An “open” hardware platform approaches worthlessness without a viable ecosystem of software that can support it, and their choice to create a monoculture has diminished that possibility too much for me to ignore.
I like you drew, and I pay for your products. I make this post with a sincere face, please do the moves that got you to the dance.